Whether you’re negotiating a business deal, discussing finances, or navigating everyday disagreements, the ability to communicate effectively can change the outcome.
In this episode of The Agent of Wealth, the Bautis Financial team discusses another book in their Book Club series: Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It–Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life by Chris Voss and Tahl Raz.
The book explores the psychology behind successful negotiations and reveals how techniques used by FBI hostage negotiators can be applied to everyday conversations — from business decisions and client relationships to personal interactions. Rather than focusing on winning arguments, Chris Voss emphasizes the importance of understanding people, building trust, and creating better outcomes through effective communication.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Why negotiation is less about convincing others and more about understanding their perspective.
- How tactical empathy, labeling, and mirroring can help build trust and improve conversations.
- Why emotions play a major role in decision-making and how to navigate them effectively.
- The importance of asking better questions to uncover challenges and create stronger commitments.
- How negotiation strategies can apply to financial planning conversations with clients
- And more!
Tune in for a conversation about one of the most influential books on persuasion and human behavior.
Resources:
Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It–Unlock Your Persuasion Potential in Professional and Personal Life | Bautis Financial: 8 Hillside Ave, Suite LL1 Montclair, New Jersey 07042 (862) 205-5000 | Schedule an Introductory Call
Disclosure: The transcript below has been edited for clarity and content. It is not a direct transcription of the full episode, which can be listened to above.
Marc:
Welcome back to The Agent of Wealth Podcast, this is your host Marc Bautis.
Today we’re doing something a little different. It’s time for another edition of the Bautis Financial Book Club.
If you’re new to these episodes, every few months someone on our team picks a book that they think is worth reading — not necessarily because it’s about investing or financial planning, but because it offers ideas that can help us become better professionals, better communicators, and better people. Then we get together to talk about what stood out, what challenged us, and how we can apply those lessons in our work with clients and in our everyday lives.
And before we jump in, I have to mention that this is actually our 20th Book Club episode, which is pretty exciting. We’ve covered everything from leadership and psychology to habits, communication, and decision-making over the years, and each book has sparked some really great conversations.
Today’s pick is Never Split the Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It by Christopher Voss and Tahl Raz.
Now, before anyone hears the word “negotiation” and thinks this book is only for hostage negotiators or salespeople, that’s definitely not the case. Whether you’re negotiating a salary, buying a house, working through a disagreement with your spouse, or simply trying to have more productive conversations, this book has a lot to offer.
This month’s selection was chosen by Dylan.
Dylan, what made you pick this book?
Dylan:
This book piqued my interest because it’s written by an FBI negotiator who handled situations with some of the highest stakes imaginable.
Many of the conversations we have in life are actually negotiations, and there’s a lot we can learn from the experiences that Voss had throughout his professional career.
Like you mentioned, this book isn’t really about negotiating prices. It’s more about understanding the people sitting on the other side of the table. And when you think about it, every client conversation we have is essentially a negotiation.
Negotiation doesn’t have to mean conflict. We negotiate expectations with clients all the time — whether that’s around risk tolerance, retirement timing, spending habits, and much more.
This book reframes negotiation as collaborative problem-solving rather than simply trying to win. And I chose this book because I wanted to learn more about how to better understand people in general and how to ask better questions.
After all, asking better questions leads to better results and better financial plans.
Marc:
That’s awesome. I know a lot of people have recommended this book over the years, so I’m excited to hear everyone’s takeaways.
Rather than me asking all the questions today, Dylan is actually going to lead our discussion.
So Dylan, I’ll hand it over to you.
Dylan:
Thanks, Marc.
One thing I really enjoyed about this book is that every chapter builds on the last, introducing techniques that seem simple on the surface but can completely change the way you approach conversations.
We’ll walk through five chapters of the book and share the ideas that stood out most to each of us, along with a few examples of where we think these lessons can be useful — not just in business, but in everyday life.
Kayla, why don’t you get us started with Chapter 1: The New Rules? What was this chapter about, and what stood out to you?
Kayla:
I thought Chapter 1 was a great introduction because it presents a different way of thinking about negotiation.
Most of us think negotiating is about making the strongest argument, proving that we’re right, or convincing the other person to agree with us. But Voss argues that’s not the best approach.
He says negotiation isn’t about winning the argument — it’s about understanding the other person. And the better you understand what’s motivating someone, the better chance you have of reaching an outcome that works for both sides.
One of the biggest takeaways from this chapter is that people are emotional before they’re logical.
We like to think we make decisions based on facts, but usually emotions come first. That’s why simply presenting more information isn’t always the best way to change someone’s mind.
In the book, Voss opens with a story from his time as an FBI hostage negotiator during a bank robbery. Instead of making demands or trying to outsmart the hostage takers, his team focused on listening. They were able to stay calm, build rapport, and encourage the robbers to keep talking. As they learned more information, they were able to de-escalate the situation.
That story really drives home his point that listening is one of the most powerful negotiation tools.
He also introduces the concept of tactical empathy. And that doesn’t mean agreeing with someone or giving in. It means understanding how they see the situation and making them feel heard.
Once people feel understood, they’re more willing to work with you.
I also liked his point about compromise. We’re taught that meeting in the middle is usually the best solution, but Voss argues that splitting the difference can leave both sides unhappy. Instead, he encourages us to figure out what’s really motivating each person.
To tie this back to financial planning, I thought this relates to how we recognize that clients don’t make decisions based on numbers alone.
We often use paying down a mortgage as an example of that.
Dylan:
Thank you, Kayla. Alright… the next person is Marc. What did you think of Chapter 2: Be a Mirror?
Marc:
Have you ever been in a conversation — maybe you’re asking for a raise, dealing with an upset customer, or even arguing with your partner — where you just feel like you’re hitting a brick wall?
I feel that way a lot when trying to negotiate with my kids.
You’re trying to make logical points, they’re getting defensive, you’re getting nowhere, and the conversation just keeps building.
Well, in this chapter, Voss breaks down one of his favorite tools for turning these tense conversations around, and it’s called mirroring.
On the surface, mirroring sounds ridiculously simple. It almost sounds too simple to work. But it’s grounded in human psychology, and it’s one of the fastest ways to build trust, uncover hidden information, and disarm the person in front of you.
To understand why mirroring works, you have to look at where Voss became an expert at this skill: hostage negotiation.
He gives an example from a situation he was involved with in Brooklyn in 1993. Two armed robbers were holding three hostages inside a Chase Manhattan bank branch. Voss was on the scene, coaching the primary negotiator, a man named Joe.
You’re in this high-stakes situation, and your instinct is usually to start barking orders and demanding that people surrender. But that often causes people to panic or dig in deeper.
Instead, Joe slowed everything down. He used a calm, gentle tone and started mirroring what the bank robber was saying.
When I was reading this chapter, it honestly sounded strange at first, but the idea is simple: he repeated the last few words of the robber’s sentences with a warm, curious inflection.
So when the robber yelled, “You’re pushing me,” Joe replied, “Pushing you.”
What happened next was interesting. The robber stopped yelling, lowered his guard, and started explaining why he felt pushed.
Voss points out that during that negotiation, four or five agents were listening in on headphones — not trying to figure out what to say next, but truly listening.
Because that happens to all of us. We’re in a conversation, but we’re not actually listening. We’re thinking about what we’re going to say next or how we’re going to respond.
But if you just listen and use mirroring, it forces you to pay attention to what the other person is actually feeling.
He applies this hostage negotiation tactic to everyday business. Imagine your boss says, “We just don’t have the budget to increase your salary right now.”
Most people immediately get defensive and start listing their accomplishments.
But if you mirror with, “Don’t have the budget?” and then pause, your boss naturally feels the urge to fill the silence.
They might say something like, “Well, our second-quarter budget is locked, but we may have room in the third quarter.”
And by doing that, you’ve uncovered the real constraint without starting an argument.
Dylan:
Yeah, thanks Marc. Next is Kyra with Chapter 3: Don’t Feel Their Pain, Label It.
Kyra:
Thank you, Dylan. When most people hear the word ‘negotiation,’ they picture tough tactics, compromise, or trying to convince the other person to see things their way. But Voss flips that on its head. Chapter 3 is all about tactical empathy.
Voss makes a big distinction right off the bat: tactical empathy isn’t about feeling sorry for someone, or about agreeing with them/ It’s simply the ability to recognize and articulate what the other person is feeling in the moment. It’s not about sympathy – it’s about understanding their emotional state so you can navigate the conversation effectively.
So, to practice this, Voss introduces a tool called Labeling.
Labeling is the act of putting a name to the other person’s hidden emotions. When someone is angry, anxious, or defensive, those emotions act like psychological noise. Until you address that noise, they can’t truly hear what you’re saying.
To create a label, Voss gives us a specific phrasing formula. You start with neutral, observational language like:
- It sounds like…
- It seems like…
- It looks like…
Notice what’s missing from those phrases? The word “I.”
Voss warns us never to say things like “What I’m hearing is…” or “I understand how you feel.” Why? Because as soon as you say “I,” you make the conversation about yourself. It triggers defensiveness. Instead, using “It seems like…” keeps the focus entirely on them.
And here’s the most critical part: once you deliver the label, you stop talking. You pause and let silence do the heavy lifting. Give them room to say, “Yes, exactly.” Or to clarify what they are feeling.
Now, why does this work so well? Voss brings in a bit of neuroscience here.
When people are experiencing negative emotions like fear, mistrust, or frustration, brain scans show high activity in the amygdala – the fear center of the brain. When you label a negative emotion out loud – for example, saying, “It seems like you’re worried we’re going to rush this project” – it actually calms the amygdala down. Vocalizing the fear shrinks its power.
On the flip side, labeling positive emotions amplifies trust and builds rapport.
Voss shares a great story from his FBI days to prove this. He was dealing with trapped fugitives in an apartment. Instead of shouting orders or making threats, he stood outside the door and repeatedly labeled their unspoken fears over a speaker. He said things like:
“It seems like you don’t want to go back to jail.”
“It seems like you’re worried we’ll open fire if you step out.”
Eventually, that emotional validation built enough safety for them to walk out peacefully.
The final concept in Chapter 3 is a technique called the Accusation Audit.
Before you step into a tough conversation – whether you’re asking for a raise, delivering bad news, or pitching a client – you sit down and list every awful thing the other person could possibly think or say about you.
Then, at the very start of the meeting, you bring up those negative accusations yourself before they can.
You say something like: “You’re probably going to think I’m being unreasonable, that I’m taking up too much of your time, and that this request is completely out of line.”
By putting their worst assumptions on the table right away, you disarm them. It leaves the other person thinking “Okay, well, it’s not THAT bad,” and immediately lowers their guard.
To wrap it all up: Chapter 3 teaches us that emotions aren’t obstacles to a negotiation – they are the negotiation. You don’t need to absorb someone else’s pain, but by using Labeling and the Accusation Audit, you can defuse tension, build trust, and guide any conversation to a better outcome.
This was a great book, great pick Dylan.
Dylan:
Thanks, Kyra.
I also love that example Voss gave with the trapped fugitives in the apartment. It’s interesting how looking at a situation from a different perspective and acknowledging someone’s emotions can completely change the outcome.
Now over to you John with Chapter 6: Bend Their Reality.
John:
This chapter starts out with a pretty intense story.
Apparently, in 2004, there was a huge spike in kidnappings in Haiti. There was significant political unrest, and Haiti actually had the highest kidnapping rate per capita of any country in the world that year.
The reason Voss brings this up is because the FBI was at the forefront of helping find these kidnappers and solve these crimes.
He shares the story of a man who came into their office and explained that his aunt had been kidnapped. The kidnappers were demanding a $150,000 ransom and essentially said, “If you give us $150,000, you’re never going to see her again.”
And as you can imagine, in a situation like that, it’s terrifying. You feel like you have no leverage.
It’s someone’s life. There’s money involved. You don’t know who the kidnappers are or where they are.
But Voss has a different perspective. He believes there is always leverage — you just have to find it.
What was interesting about this situation was that because there were so many kidnappings happening, they were able to track when they occurred.
They noticed kidnappings were much more common at the beginning of the week and would almost disappear by the weekend.
Voss jokes that maybe these criminals were just highly motivated — getting up every Monday morning ready to go. But they realized that wasn’t the case.
What they discovered was that although many ransom demands were extremely high, the kidnappers were really just looking for “party money.”
They would start a kidnapping on Monday, spend the next few days trying to collect money, and then use that money over the weekend before starting the process again.
The point was that the leverage came from understanding what they actually wanted.
They realized these kidnappers didn’t need $150,000 to party for the weekend. They needed enough money to get through the weekend.
And that gave the FBI an opportunity to negotiate.
This also connects to another important concept in the chapter: anchoring.
Anchoring is about setting the stage in a negotiation, especially when money is involved.
Take a job interview, for example. You want to get the highest salary possible. The employer may not necessarily be trying to underpay you, but they’re also not looking to pay more than they need to.
So there’s a balance.
If you go too low, they’ll probably accept immediately. If you go too high, you may come across as unrealistic. There’s a sweet spot.
Voss comes back to that kidnapping example, where they intentionally set a very low anchor. They started negotiating from a much lower amount than the original demand.
He also introduces another concept later in the chapter: gifting or distracting someone from the main point of negotiation.
If money is the focus, sometimes introducing other factors can change the conversation. In a job negotiation, for example, you may focus on additional vacation time or flexibility instead of just salary.
Even if those things don’t have the same monetary value, they shift the conversation away from a single number.
In the kidnapping example, they continued negotiating back and forth. Instead of offering a round number, they eventually came back with a very specific amount — something like $4,178.
The reason is that strange numbers can feel more authentic. It makes the other side think, “Maybe this person really looked at their account and this is all they have.”
They even offered something like a CD player, almost as if they were saying, “This is everything we have.”
That showed the kidnappers they were reaching the limit.
And because the kidnappers didn’t want to go into the weekend without their money, they eventually accepted.
Voss gives a lot of examples throughout this chapter, but the main lesson is that perspective is everything.
If someone offered you $20 to pick up a cup of coffee and it took three minutes, you might think, “That’s like making $400 an hour. Sure, I’ll do it.”
But if you later found out that person used your help to make a million dollars, suddenly that $20 doesn’t feel as valuable.
That’s the idea behind bending reality.
Using things like anchors, deadlines, and perspective can help someone see a situation differently and believe that the outcome you’re offering may be the best option available.
I really enjoyed this chapter and the book overall. It was interesting to hear Voss’s tone throughout the book. At times, he can come across as a little arrogant, but he clearly knows what he’s talking about.
I thought it was a great read.
Dylan:
Thanks John… Now I am going to talk about Chapter 8: Guarantee Execution.
Have you ever gotten someone to say yes, only to find out later that nothing actually happened?
That’s because getting agreement is easy compared to getting execution.
Voss explains in this chapter that there are actually three kinds of “yes.”
There’s a counterfeit yes, which is when someone says yes just to end the conversation or avoid conflict.
There’s a confirmation yes, which is simply acknowledging a fact.
And there’s a commitment yes, which is a genuine promise to take action.
Getting someone to say yes doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting commitment.
When we negotiate, we shouldn’t negotiate for agreement — we should negotiate for action.
So how do you actually negotiate for action?
One way is by using calibrated questions.
Rather than telling people what to do, we should ask questions that force them to solve the problem themselves.
For example, you can ask:
“How will we make this happen?”
“What’s the biggest challenge to achieving this goal?”
These questions expose potential problems before they become real issues. They shift the focus to the actions needed to achieve the desired outcome.
After all, execution comes from ownership. People are much more likely to follow through on a plan they helped create rather than one that was simply handed to them.
This made me think about how we discuss market volatility with our clients.
When markets decline, clients often say they won’t panic. While we understand it never feels comfortable when the market drops, our goal is to prepare clients before volatility happens.
We start every engagement by bringing clients through a risk assessment exercise, where we ask questions related to their capacity, tolerance, and composure for risk.
This process asks clients questions they may not have considered before and helps them think about market risk from a different perspective.
It not only educates clients about the potential volatility their portfolio can experience, but also helps set expectations around the growth they can reasonably expect from a portfolio with that level of risk.
Through this process, we create a commitment to the plan before emotions take over.
When we set expectations upfront, clients are prepared for possible worst-case scenarios. So if those scenarios happen, they don’t panic because we’ve already had conversations about what to expect.
A quote from this chapter that stuck with me was: “People support what they help create.”
Ask yourself: What would change if you focused less on getting a “yes” and more on creating a system that guarantees execution?
Long-term success often depends not on designing the perfect strategy, but on creating the conditions for consistent follow-through.
Alright Marc, that’s the chapter breakdown for this book. I’ll hand it back to you to close out the show.
Marc:
Alright, that’s all we have for today’s Book Club discussion. I want to thank the team for being here, and thank you to everyone who tuned in. If you have a suggestion for our next Book Club book, we’d love to hear it. You can email suggestions to [email protected].
Thanks again, and we’ll talk to you in the next episode.
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